I'm hanging out in my local .4, looking for trouble. I have a few safespots set up, and I've been shuttling between them in my blackbird for an hour or so, scanning the belts for likely targets while keeping an eye on local. The crowd is all positive or 0 sec status, so my pickings seem pretty slim as far as bad guys to fight. I decide to head to a station to dock and call it a day, so I warp on over.
Cleared for publication by: Ander
Rest of story moved to extended body.
roadrage639 > hi
happyapples > don't shoot me
happyapples > i'm not set up for fighting you'd kill me
And then...! What does he respond with?
roadrage639 > i no
roadrage639 > pay me and i wont
happyapples > i don't have any money
roadrage639 > tough
happyapples > please don't blow up my ship i don't have any shield stuff on it
roadrage639 > 1 mill or die
Okay... so either he bought my spiel and is looking to make some money off of it, or he's betting that I don't know about the two nice sentry guns sitting by the station. We both bullshit each other some more:
This goes on for a while, getting pretty ridiculous, with the lies on both sides piling up fast. After an eternity (probably only 5-6 minutes) of waiting for him to blow up my ship, I decide that it's not happening and he is wise to the sentries. I give up and proceed to warp to a random belt, figuring on hanging out a bit more in system before logging off.
BUT WHAT IS THIS?!!!
A gang invitation pops up on my screen! Can it be true? Can it be so easy? What on earth is he thinking? My erstwhile bullshitter has invited me to his gang! With much glee, I accept his invitation.
Of course he warps to me right away. I waste no time. We both lock each other at the same instant, but his lock dissolves immediately to my twin jammers. Within seconds his ship and weapons systems are bound, gagged and helpless. I unleash EMP hell.
Some NPC Guristas show up to join the party. Meanwhile, my gangmate is trying to get me to ransom him.
It tempts me for half a second, but I realize that 1. I'm not a pirate, I'm an anti-pirate, so on principle I can't accept, and 2. He's bullshitting again anyway. No way would anyone pay to save a merlin.
As the final salvo of heavy missiles hits and his merlin explodes into a fine mist, I muse to myself that he and I are not really that different. Each an opportunist, each glibly fibbing to further our own ends. The only reason I prevailed was that for some reason, my opponent decided that his merlin could outshoot my blackbird. Am I really, then, so much of a better space citizen than him merely because he assumed the role of "pirate ransommer" first? And would he even have done so if I had not baited him? Clearly, this particular pirate kill walks on that thin line between killing pirates and killing for sport. I tell myself that in the future, I will stay out of such gray areas and not be such a temptation for noobs to do space-evil.
I don't try to lock his pod, and watch it warp away.
I've never actually done PVP, and I've been in EVE almost 2 years now. Your story tempts me to try it myself!
The advantage of being in a virtual world is at least you can play around with morally ambiguous behaviour without seriously causing problems
Or you could think of it as a stupidity tax...
Shot - #3 - 2006-07-27 19:14 -
but.... the pod! you let it get away! nooooooooo!
Nic - #4 - 2006-07-27 21:15 -
Your a anti-pirate telling a story on a site about pirating?
Im tempted to come kill you myself hahaha
Anonymous - #5 - 2006-07-27 21:53 -
turn to t3h dark side... you know you want to! and we have cookies!
Kirex - #6 - 2006-07-27 23:16 -
Take off those warp core stabs please. And I dont care if you think you need them to live (really, you dont need them, wcs are for the lazy) and you cant afford to lose a cruiser. using a module used for travel shouldnt be used on a ship meant for combat and dont fly anything you cant afford to lose if your scared you'll lose your ship.
Its like you going up to some random guy and you slap him in the face, then when he starts fighting back, you run away crying and screaming. Only pussies do that.
whoops, I guess I turned this into a WCS post. I didnt mean to, but I had to get this off my chest and I wont respond to this anymore to avoid a flamewar.
But besides the WCS, congrats on your kill I guess, even tough it was a cruiser vs a ti frigate :S. I imagine you probably inflicted 300k isk damage to him :/.
happyapples - #6.1 - 2006-07-28 05:18 -
Dude, if people I fight are going to equip warp scramblers, then I am going to equip stabilizers. They have saved my ship before. And yes, I can afford to lose my ship (lost two so far to pirates), but I'd rather not! The argument against stabilizers is kind of silly, if you ask me. I mean, you might as well start condemning shield extenders as being for pantywaists.
And yeah, I do realize it was a rather one-sided fight
Mydol - #7 - 2006-07-28 04:57 -
Equip what you need to win, period. Only the stupid talk of honor and bravery and all that bull.
Good story, you took advantage of someone elses stupidity and they paid for it. Even if you are a prirate in the closet.
Formosus Funus - #8 - 2006-07-28 09:29 -
Nice story. However, the WCS... Come on, fit something else, I cant wait when they nerf the goddamn WCS.
Picking your targets isnt really that bad. I mean, people in 'lower' ships should know as well < 0.5 isnt safe and doing suicide by attacking a BS is stupid as well.
But about anti-pirate and pirate stuff, I think Anti-pirates are lamers, searching for excuses to be a pirate as well. And even worse, what if someone got a negative security by helping a friend in < 0.5 and got flagged? Is he then a pirate? That's rubbish IMO.
Anonymous - #9 - 2006-07-28 14:01 -
You know what will save your ship more effectivly than being a stab monkey? Fitting for pvp. Otherwise you warp out, and people like me dock and fit a few extra points to hold your ass down. And besides, you're in an EW ship, worse come to worse, JAM THEM. Use those lows for something useful like a couple BCU's or PDS. As you're own screenshots show, your cap is hurting badly while fighting a damned frigate, you need at least one PDS badly, plus it'll help the tank.
Stab monkeys make babay Jesus cry, fit to fight or fit to travel, not both at once. If you can't hold your own in a fight you were looking for in the first place and need WCS to survive, you probably shouldn't be picking fights and calling yourself an anti-pirate in the first place. Can't wait for the upcoming WCS nerf...
And yes, antipirates are the ghey, get over yourself.
cbarran - #10 - 2006-07-28 15:12 -
you guys are against WCS?
i lost a ship when i got ganked 11 vs 1. i lost a scorpion. i had about 3 ppl scrambling me.
now i have 2 WCS fitted. gonna make it hard for them to lock me down now.
how is that bad?
ever heard the saying, "live to fight another day"?
so it's anti WCS, anti ECM, anti what next?
shield extenders/hardeners, or armor reps?
if you pick a fight with a guy and he warps away, then pick another fight.
if a guy picks a fight with you and then he warps away cuz he was getting his ass smacked, then you won the fight!
Dexus - #11 - 2006-07-28 19:03 -
"how is that bad?"
Warp core stabs compleatly throw the balance off in the game.
Have you ever heard of 'Risk vs Reward'? Its esential to everything in eve (and in real life), High risk - High Reward, Low Risk - Low reward. But with WCS, Its Low Risk - High Reward, compleatly ruining the balance of risk vs reward. I can sit in 0.0 killing BS NPCs all day long with my WCS, then when someone comes to kill me, I just warp away. LOW RISK VS HIGH REWARD, this is NOT how 0.0 or low sec should be! This compleatly ruins the balance of risk and reward, and if you say otherwise, your stupid or your stubborn and dont want to admit im right.
Fleet combat. The side with WCS will always win. How do you think Burn Eden have been doing so well? The side with the ability to warp out WHENEVER THEY WANT will ALWAYS win, the otherside wont be able to kill the person fast enough because the person with WCS will be aligned and ready to warp out as soon as he takes damage.
Low-Sec piracy. If I attack someone in low sec and they warp away, I get -.5 from my sec. I want to be able to preserve my sec so I can still be able to go to rens to buy stuff, so that means i'll have to go to 0.0. In 0.0, thats still about about half an hour of ratting (assumming I find 3 .2 BS) for something that took about 5 seconds. I'll also have to go though the troubles of preparing myself for 0.0. Its not the case of 'hay ill just stop what im doing and walk into 0.0" Ill have to buy my npcing stuff from rens with an alt, strip my BS and equip it for NPCing, then log onto my other alt to check out the 0.0 choke point, and depending if its camped or not ill start heading there, if its camped ill log off and try again latter, then I check one more time with my alt when im about to jump into the 0.0 to make sure its not camped, if its camped all log off and try again tommorow, then when I make my way to my favorite hunting spot, some people might already be ratting there and taking all the rats, so I'll log off and try again latter when theyre gone. So it takes about a day or 2 to acculy start ratting.
And it just pisses you off when you see a target warp away from you and smack you in local "SEE, I R SMART 4 FITTING WCS, BECAUSE I JUST WON HAHALOL" :/
Rawr - #11.1 - 2006-08-01 14:39 -
"Fleet combat. The side with WCS will always win."
If you run away, YOU have lost. Thats how it works in alliance claimed space.
And WCS wont save your ass from a bubble. It just means when you are caught in a bubble, your setup is gimped. Say bye bye to your ship.
patoff - #12 - 2006-07-28 20:40 -
Ya you guys r0x, get into a velator and be a real man, be anti-everything! Nah I know what you guys really need: eve-offline! yes this way youll all own!
Rikeka - #13 - 2006-07-29 02:02 -
BTW, guys. What you guys are saying is that he must face PvP even if he doesÂ´t like it?
Screw that. If you want to avoid PvP, avoid it. Want to be in 0.0 ratting in peace? Do it!
I laugh at the guy that complains about Â¨Boo! I canÂ´t pirate because they all have WCSÂ´s, the world is so unfair, IÂ´m an honest pirateÂ¨
If scramblers exist, there is a reason for WCSÂ´s to exist too.
If you use scramblers, other have all the right to fit WCSÂ´s too.
BTW, there are +3 scramblers outhere.
Buy one of those if you want to screw over stabs.
Dexus - #14 - 2006-07-29 03:08 -
"BTW, there are +3 scramblers outhere.
Buy one of those if you want to screw over stabs."
steel toes - #15 - 2006-07-29 06:54 -
What in the bleeding hell are you people rambling on about? Who here is anti-tank or anti-ECM?
"BTW, guys. What you guys are saying is that he must face PvP even if he doesÂ´t like it?" No, I'm saying if he calls himself an antipirate and is roaming around looking for a fight, fitting WCS is the gheyest thing you can do. That's actively looking for pvp, while being ready to run like a noob. I'm tempted to reactivate steel toes, pack a couple backup arrays and 4 points of scram and confiscate those WCS.
Fortunately the rumored WCS nerf will take care of this little issue, as I recall the current plan is to make WCS act as sensor damps, making it at the very least very difficult to fit like a noob and gank something at the same time. The reason for this has been stated, pilots like BE that fit a full rack of offense, a full rack of ECM/tank, and a full rack of stabs and gank shit all day while being damn near untouchable. Fit to fight or fit to run, not both at once. if you can't handle fitting to fight to the death, don't go picking fights until you don't suck quite so much.
(that was me, steel toes, in reply #9 as well, won't let me post comments under steel toes for reasons unknown).
Rikeka - #16 - 2006-07-29 07:50 -
Fit to fight or fit to run?
If you are ratting, you fit stabs to run. ItÂ´s an option you have.
If you can hunt pirates solo with stabs on, good for you. If he is has to face pack, with 1 tackler, ge can escape. And he saves his ship/s.
It`s not gay, it maybe be counter-productive, sure. He can fit better stuff. But why not lower the chances to lose your stuff at the minimum possible?
And Dexus, you sure?
I though there is an Officer variation that reaches 3. I could have seen it wrong, not in EvE right now (was not logged when I wrote my last post too)
Dexus - #17 - 2006-07-29 23:33 -
I'll say it again, RISK VS REWARD. wcs BREAK it.
I can NPC without stabs for an hour and make 1 million isk and someone kills me
Someone else can npc for an hour and make 1 million isk and not die.
Cant you find something wrong with that??? WCS is the 'I win" button, you can still do just as good as the other person without WCS, but be SAFER.
Thats the problem. Fitting WCS LOWERS your risk, BUT DOES NOT LOWER YOUR REAWRD. Low-sec is SUPPOSED to be dangerous, WCS removes that danger, cant you find something wrong with that??
(btw: there is an officer 3 point scram...but ffs..its officer, it will probably cost more than 1 billion isk...lol)
Samarath - #17.1 - 2006-07-30 23:14 -
If you guys use warp scramblers, I'm going to use WCS...that's the way it goes..if u stop, then I'm sure we'll stop because there wont be a need for them..set and match
ButtBuddy - #17.2 - 2006-08-02 23:34 -
You know, pirates are crying more about crap than anyone. Wait, lets tell the world terrorists they cant use roadside bombs anymore. Its unfair low risk vs high reward crap that affects the balance of the universe, I mean Iraq. Presenting the best possible solution to a problem isnt ghey its life
Vreith Torkana - #17.3 - 2009-03-31 05:44 -
Dexus - #17
Look you actively said your a pirate, so if they escape, the rewards don't always have to be in your favor, you are a pirate, you are running at podding people and looting, and im sure every time you have success you get a big smile on your dial, so, you can't always have that smile, and you will have to do the boring work, so what this is the game is structures, you wish to run the "bad guy" that's your choice, the choices of the game are in front of you, love of leave it i guess?
unless they change the rules of coarse, but its set up to be like it is...
As for the guy whinging about miners barley coming down to be hunted, i wonder why... "lets go down to 0.4 below to be blown up, i want to be blown up today!" i think you said it your self, there built for mining.... and the risk is not worth the reward in that sense! Without a couple of escort BS's and maybe a ECM ship there's no profit in losing your hulk fleet, and its hard to find Mercs sometimes who want to risk the security status to stopping obove -5 pirates from stealing a corp not their owns stuff, but for the corp rep they have to, and will do Boring Ratting to get there sec back, and they dident POD nor Loot from no one not already stealing from their perogative...
Thats my 2 Bobs
Dexus - #18 - 2006-07-31 01:02 -
Typical carebear, you always want to be 100% safe. If you dont know: eve is a PVP game, you want to be 100% protected in a game thats based around pvp, lol. Low sec is supposed to be DANGEROUS, stay out of low sec if you want minimal PVP. Its true ask the devs. If your against PVP, then I suggest you try World of Warcraft out, its all PVE so I think you'll be happy.
Contrary to carebear belief, you dont need WCS to survive. Just BE SMART. Keep an eye on local at all times, if theres someone you think will kill you, SS or dock, make instas around the system, ect.
Trask - #18.1 - 2006-07-31 17:22 -
I think that kind of attitude is laughable. There is penalty for using WCS. You lose a slot that might otherwise be used.
I don't see how WCS is any different from any other module. Warping out of a fight you can't win a perfectly legitimate tactic.
I was once ratting in a belt in a Brutix.... I was warped in on by an Eagle and a Crusader tackler. So, a HAC and Inty against a BC. I wasn't fitting WCS, but I was well-tanked. I killed the crusader and warped out. The Eagle was chewin through my tank at an impressive rate.
What was I supposed to do? Stick around and let the Eagle eat me? I had tank in my low slots, but the effect would have been almost the same if I fit WCS (counter the tackler and get outta dodge)
WCS rule, they keep me from getting ganked by pirates. I spend all day ratting and fitting my ship with new equipment, and I'm supposed to just sit in 0.0 without a WCS so a lazy pirate can come and take all my hard earned loot? Face it pirates are lazy and don't want to mine/rat/mission for money, they just want to pick on weaker ships and steal from hard working people like myself. Pirates are like leeches, they are too lazy to work for their loot. That's why I use WCS to protect my hard earned equipment.
cbarran - #20 - 2006-07-31 18:20 -
i tend to agree with trask and anti-pirate.
who are the people whining about WCS?
they seem to forget that you do lose a slot for every WCS you fit. that low lot can be a damage mod, part of an armor tank. whatever.
if you want to counter WCS? then get 2-3 tacklers. i got ganked 11 vs 1 and sure enough from what i can tell there were 2 tacklers at least. i lost my ship.
just this weekend gone i got ganked 3 vs 1 this time. and this time i got away thanks to the WCS.
WCS for pussies
what happens if you come up against a player that has very high resists to the damage you are outputing?
then do you cry shield hardeners and shield amps are unfair?
aslo then why use shield boosters, tracking computers, BCS etc or any other mod that gives you an advantage?????
we might as well all be flying Ibis(es)
Anonymous - #21 - 2006-08-01 11:52 -
"if you want to counter WCS? then get 2-3 tacklers."
As soon as we do that you noobs cry foul in local about blobbing...
Dexus - #22 - 2006-08-01 18:24 -
I think that kind of attitude is laughable. There is penalty for using WCS. You lose a slot that might otherwise be used."
You can say that for ANY module,
"Instead of fitting a armor rep, I could of fitted a WCS/damage mod/CPR/ect"
So that argument is null.
"I killed the crusader and warped out. The Eagle was chewin through my tank at an impressive rate."
tbh, this is exactly what people should do instead of fitting WCS. You dont need WCS to survive, just kill the person scrambling you and you can get out. Nice job on that.
"I spend all day ratting and fitting my ship with new equipment,"
Dont fly something you cant aford to lose. So you say you want the reward without the risk? Thats whats wrong with WCS, they take the risk out of everything, without any penalty to the reward.
ratting in high sec low reward but low risk
ratting in low sec higher reward but greater risks
ratting in low sec w/WCS: high reward but low risk.
Cant you see whats wrong? wcs are the 'I WIN' button. You dont need WCS to survive, your just being lazy and greedy.
"if you want to counter WCS? then get 2-3 tacklers."
Oh, I see, your solution is just to gank people. lol. So in order to kill just ONE person, I'll have to bring a fleet ofaround 5 people? Then they complain in local with stuff like 'you noobs, you can only kill me ganking' 'why are you ganking, you have no skill' ect. THEFACT IT TAKES 5 PEOPLE TO KILL 1 SHIP, MEANS THE MODULE IS OVERPOWERED. Thats it, if it requires more numbers on your side to kill a single person using WCS, then the module is overpowered.
"just this weekend gone i got ganked 3 vs 1 this time."
from that, I can tell you hate ganking too, why else would you put something like that in a post defending WCS? So here we have it, Your solution is to bring a fleet to hold down a bigger ship, yet you hate ganking. lol?
"what happens if you come up against a player that has very high resists to the damage you are outputing?"
kill him? or maybe warp away if he is slower than you or doesnt have a warp scram.
"then do you cry shield hardeners and shield amps are unfair?"
dont be stupid, no.
"aslo then why use shield boosters, tracking computers, BCS etc or any other mod that gives you an advantage?????"
So it gives me an advantage in a fight?
wcs = helps you run
other stuff = helps you fight
alot of people are saying something that helps you run (WCS) shouldnt be placed on a ship setup for fighting.
"we might as well all be flying Ibis(es)"
Trask - #22.1 - 2006-08-03 16:52 -
""I think that kind of attitude is laughable. There is penalty for using WCS. You lose a slot that might otherwise be used."
You can say that for ANY module,
"Instead of fitting a armor rep, I could of fitted a WCS/damage mod/CPR/ect"
So that argument is null."
No it's not... that REINFORCES my point. WCS, JUST LIKE ANY OTHER MODULE, produces a specific effect at the cost of fitting space (Slot, CPU, Grid). It's a module to use if surviving is more important to you than winning. Which it might be if you're taking your first mining barge out for a spin.
"just kill the person scrambling you and you can get out. Nice job on that.
Thanks, but I was fortunate enough to be a in a combat ship. Also, I was equipped to kill an inty. What if I had been fitted for long range shooting? What if the bad guys came in with 2 HAC's? What if I was in a Mining Barge? (well, OK, mining in a low sec system without cover would be pretty dumb).
"THEFACT IT TAKES 5 PEOPLE TO KILL 1 SHIP, MEANS THE MODULE IS OVERPOWERED."
Are ECM moidules overpowered?
"wcs = helps you run
other stuff = helps you fight
alot of people are saying something that helps you run (WCS) shouldnt be placed on a ship setup for fighting. "
WEll, two things.
1) You know there is a huge difference between being setup in a fighting ship for NPCing and a ship PvP. ASking a ratter to face you in an NPC ship without having the option to run just seems a little convenient for you. Remember: YOU are the one initiating the fight. This guy doesn't WANT to fight you. You're a pirate. Honest hardworking pod-pilots want to AVOID you, not fight you.
Also, I can;t TELL you how many times I've faced a pirate who has WCS fitted. They were looking fro easy ganks against haulers and miners, not the target's buddies coming after them.
Frankly, I don't see much difference between WCS and roaming gank squads of interceptors that can avoid engagment at will.
Gr1efer - #23 - 2006-08-01 22:06 -
WCS are great.
They make your opponent's teeth grit almost more than making his pod go shplict.
I wouldn't use WCS if it wasn't for the damage mod nerf. Tanking is rarely necessary anyhow except in very rare and frankly unrealistic circumstances. Maybe if cap boosters or batteries were low slots then lowslots wouldn't completely suck. That's why lowslot ECCM is so damn weak. Until then, stabageddon ftw.
Kyera - #24 - 2006-08-03 06:36 -
Seems to me that a counter-measure is just as valid as the technique requiring it.
I mean really, we could say that running around with a scrambler and locking down weaker ships to get a pretty much guaranteed kill is not taking a big risk.
You can play this kind of circular logic game until time itself ends.
szf - #25 - 2006-08-03 13:43 -
I think, wcs is a defensive option. Look: pirates have to option who to fight. They check the target, and Im sure if any pirate think that he cant beat the guy, then he wont attack. Im sure, every pirate made such decision to avoid the combat with another guy, just because he looked stronger. So, are these pirates wimp, looser or weak?
So, the attacker (predator ) have the option to figh or not to fight.
Why is it so painful to have the same options for the attacked (prey) as well?
You can say that it is wimp, wcs for the loosers... but look: the low sec have asteroids and NPCs. They have the purpose - they are for the players who cant/dont want to kill other players, but want to rat against stronger NPCs and mine asteroids for higher income.
You cant require a miner to fit offensive weapons to his ship - this is simply not possible.
I think this stuff is balanced BECAUSE the same item exists for both sides. WCS versus scrambler. Just like the guns against shields/armor.
Everything can be countered in EVE and that is good as is.
Dexus - #26 - 2006-08-03 19:40 -
"I mean really, we could say that running around with a scrambler and locking down weaker ships to get a pretty much guaranteed kill is not taking a big risk."
WTF?!?! Have you EVER pvped?! THATS COMPLEAT NONSENSE!
lol...you dont risk anything with PVP? LMAO
"but want to rat against stronger NPCs and mine asteroids for higher income. "
EXACTLY!!! You can preety much just NPC, mine, and make money, WITHOUT ANY RISKS BUT YOU STILL TAKE THE REAWRDS. Low sec is supposedd to be DANGEROUS, you go into low sec PREPARED TO DIE AND LOOSE YOUR POD AND EVERYTHING ON YOUR SHIP. Thats what makes EVE SO GREAT. You can loose EVERYTHING in a matter of seconds!! what other game offers that?
ONCE AGAIN, LOW SEC IS PVP LAND, YOU GO THERE EXPECTING TO DIE. I SAID YOU GO THERE EXPECTING TO DIE!! IF YOU WANT TO BE SAFE AND DONT WANT TO PVP, STAY IN .5-1.0 (but even that isn't compleatly safe). Your complaining about PVP while in low sec?! lmao
again, most carebears think 'pirates fit scrams, ill fit stabs' or 'wcs is a defense' 'pirates choose fights, why cant I?' 'pirates are griefers' 'its a counter, its balance'. well, its not balance or any of that. Ill explain again, nothing bad happens to you while you fit WCS currently, its always a good thing. you can just sit in a belt mining making 30 mil an hour and as soon as someone starts shooting you, you warp away, and when they leave you start mining again. You cant be killed with WCS in a 1v1. Its near impossible. nobody is going to fill their med slots (med slots are the most useful slots in pvp, without them, its like batman without a utility belt.) that compleatly gimps your setup. some of you are thinking 'but I have to gimp my low slots' you dont need your low slots as much as meds, you can fill them up with wcs and be invinclible. Now your probably thinking 'just bring more people'. lol, so the only way to kill you is if we bring a fleet? And your saying WCS arent overpowered?
Risk vs reward explained (again). High risk - High Reward, Low Risk - Low reward. But with WCS, Its Low Risk - High Reward, compleatly ruining the balance of risk vs reward. I can sit in 0.0 killing BS NPCs all day long with my WCS, then when someone comes to kill me, I just warp away. LOW RISK VS HIGH REWARD, this is NOT how 0.0 or low sec should be! This compleatly ruins the balance of risk and reward, and if you say otherwise, your stupid or your stubborn and dont want to admit im right.
cbarran - #27 - 2006-08-03 20:30 -
question: if you get webbed before you can warp, can you still build up speed to warp out?
szf - #28 - 2006-08-04 09:17 -
We are just approaching the topic from two different viewpoint:
You want to fight with everyone in low sec, and think someone must die at the end of every fight (as there is almost no escape).
If there would be no escape possibility, all the miners would die in their mining fitted ships against your fight orientation ship.
The result would be the same as the current: you couldn't fight miners, because they wouldn't come down with miner ships. Now you can fight rarely, because they can escape. Which one is better?
I really dont understand, why is it painful for you if a miner get 2x more profit with low sec mining. Does it hurt you? No.
If you kill a miner, does it hurt him? Yes.
You have to understand: if someone going to mine, he dont want to fight against players. If you force the miners to fight in low sec, they wont come in low sec, and you will have no chance to kill them. Currently you have a chance...
BTW: mining in low sec requires more attention. In high sec, I can even AFK mine with a barge (dont confuse it with macro mining), without even being disturbed. In low sec, AFK mining is a suicide. So if I think as you: I have to watch constantly my barge in low sec for more profit OR can be lazy and careless in high sec for less profit.
Here is some short of balance.
I guess you know, that most of the carebear miners are still in high sec. Just check the ship count in a 0.5/0.9 vs a 0.4. You will see what I mean...
If mining in low sec is so safe as you claim, why don't they come down?
szf - #29 - 2006-08-04 09:18 -
"You want to fight with everyone in low sec, and think someone must die at the end of every fight (as there is almost no escape)."
Correct: ".... (as there should not be escape)."
Dexus - #30 - 2006-08-05 01:18 -
"You want to fight with everyone in low sec, and think someone must die at the end of every fight (as there is almost no escape)."
I try to ransom when ever I can, but if we're both fighting to the death...sombody is going to die. Common sense really.
"If there would be no escape possibility, all the miners would die in their mining fitted ships against your fight orientation ship."
That makes sense, A ship setup for combat vs a ship not setup for combat...omfg, the ship setup for fighting would win in a fight?!?! Who would have known...
"The result would be the same as the current: you couldn't fight miners, because they wouldn't come down with miner ships. Now you can fight rarely, because they can escape. Which one is better?"
Then I'll fight whatever they bring down?
"I really dont understand, why is it painful for you if a miner get 2x more profit with low sec mining. Does it hurt you? No.
If you kill a miner, does it hurt him? Yes. "
Its because theyre mining while being compleatly safe. Their WCS provide them with as little risk as possible. It does hurt me, because it makes me loose my valuable security status and wait 15 mins until I can dock/change system, and as I explained ealier, going to 0.0 to rat isnt something you just decide to do on the spot, It takes planning scouting, fitting ships, making bms, checking choke points, waiting when they arent camped, ect...(look a #11). And it also makes me loose a bit 'potential profit'. (ex. t2 strip miners cost something like 15 mil each? I could of gotten 15-45 mil for the single barge, even more If I got to ransom him.)
"You have to understand: if someone going to mine, he dont want to fight against players. If you force the miners to fight in low sec, they wont come in low sec, and you will have no chance to kill them. Currently you have a chance..."
I'll say it again, LOW SEC IS FOR PVPERS. Your going into low sec (AKA PVP space) and complaining your nice juicy barge is getting shot by pirates. Do you realize how ridiculous you sound? FFS, dont be stupid, theres plenty of ways to avoid pirates while mining in low sec other than using an unbalanced mods. For example, dont mine from warp-in-points, keep an eye on local (the best way to do this is keep the 'local' and 'corp, gang, alliance, others ect..' seperate windows, keep an eye on local, when ever someone comes in do a 'show info' on him and check his bio, corp info, employment history, his sec status (dont think low sec person=pirate, many antipirates have low security status to, so dont judje soley on that), point your ship towards a station so you wont have to align to warp out, make BMs and SSs around the system, use a condom, ect...
"BTW: mining in low sec requires more attention."
yea I do agree with that. low sec still needs to provide some more reward for the risk.
"If mining in low sec is so safe as you claim, why don't they come down?"
I didnt claim that. lol. If I did, I probably meant something else and came out how it did. Low sec isnt safe and shouldnt be. Theres ways to prevent getting killed, but it shouldnt be considered safe. And most miners I come accross are scared and uneducated about low security space, or know they arent ready for it. So ask them not me .
vuulpiyne - #31 - 2006-08-07 17:12 -
I'd like to make a couple of brief points here, firstly, Eve is not a PvP game and low sec is not PvP land - at least not for everyone. They are only those things if you are a pirate. Most people are egocentric whoever they are, so it's not suprising that most pirates think that Eve should revolve around them and the way that they play.
Whilst most carebears do want to be totally safe all of the time, most pirates want to be able to kill anyone they want at any time. Both are totally ridiculous extremes and neither would make for an enjoyable game experience.
Most pirates fail to respect that Eve, as an online game, requires players co-operating with one another for the best results. I'm sure some pirate players would like it if there were no alliances, no stations nor anything else in 0.0 - nothing but a sparse void of players encountering each other once a week for short, brutal fights in which nothing is gained. The rest of us like stations, places to sell their loot, manufactured ships, equipment and ammunition to buy - all of which is made by the carebears who take that greater risk by stepping out into 0.0 and make it inhabitable, bit by bit, whilst dodging bullets. So what if they get away from time to time? Carebears are the ones who make your toys in the first place.
cbarran - #32 - 2006-08-07 17:28 -
hey that is a very valid point.
i never thought about it like that before.
do carebears are the ones who do facilitate you being able to fight.
else you'd have to spend your time, and isk making your own stuff.
i am in a corp & alliance, and we do everything. manfacturing and whatnot and pvp of course. the pvp has evolved in that we do have specific targets now.
it's not safe where we are.
during the cost of one week i lost 1 scorpion and 1 raven, and both had WCS fitted.
but get this, i also lost a badger in 0.4 sec space next to gate when 4 x players ganked me. they had ravens.
goes to show, not only 0.0 space dangerous.
dexus i thik said something about losing sec when attacking a player...do you mean 0.0 space? cuz i thought in 0.0 your sec didn't change if you attacked other players.
MtnGoat - #33 - 2006-08-09 04:27 -
Warp Core Stabs don't make 0.0 safe, they just make it safe against every Tom, Dick, and Capt Jack Sparrow who reckons they can fit up a cheap-ass frigate or cruiser and feels they have every right to have a 100% killrate against 'carebears' in mining ships worth hundreds of millions of dollars.
Seriously people, these people make real pirates look bad (ermm, bad-der). If you can't field a second ship to tackle, you don't have any right to expect anything better than the occasional kill.
You think killing carebears is too hard, try to kill a pirate. The majority of pirates, use stabs anyway, and every single pirate I've come across will try and run when they're outgunned. When I see pirates choosing to stay and fight superior groups, I just might start to see them as anything but hypocrites.
There are pirates and then there are griefer whingers, Anders, these whingers give your craft a bad name.
cbarran - #34 - 2006-08-09 16:45 -
that is so very true. WCS dont make 0.0 safe. it might makes a little safer though.
let me explain. there is the guy on here who complains about wcs messing up the balance of the game and what not. and complaining that you would in fact need a tackler or two or three to lock down a ship.
what's the problem with that?
as i said before, i lost a scorpion (twice) and a raven in 0.0
when i lost the scorpion the first time i had at least 2-3 ppl locking me down. and come to think of it, the second time when i lost the scorpion, i was webbed. i had wcs fitted they tried to scramble didn't work so they adjusted tactics. i have to admire them for that.
which is why i asked if you need to be at max speed before you can warp out?
speaking of pirates running when outgunned it's true. there was a "pirate" in a2-v27 two weeks ago camping at the gate in an inty. i warped to 100 km of the gate and then he locked me so i was fired at him. he took some hits and then jumped through the gate. we played this cat and mouse game for a while. there was someone with a hauler trying to get to the gate and mr bad ass pirate didn't shoot when i was there, but of course ganked the hauler and ran when i had warped away to warp back in on top of the gate.
he was so brave wasn't he? lol
Dexus - #35 - 2006-08-10 07:27 -
"Eve is not a PvP game"
Your so wrong. Everything about eve is "player vs PLayer" even the market. Your competeing against other players so people buy your product and not theirs. pvp =/= 'killing people'.
"pirates think that Eve should revolve around them and the way that they play."
No? Theres just an overpowered module in the game that needs changing. And please, STFU. Are you saying carebears never requested a nerf? how do you think sentry guns got put in .4 and lower? why do you think theres can flagging? Because carebears whined on the forum because they cant be 100% safe in an enviroment meant for pvp.
"requires players co-operating with one another for the best results"
Here we go again, you want pirates to gank 9 vs 1 so CCP doesnt take your "I win!" button away? I'll say this again.
IF A MODULE REQUIRES ONE SIDE TO HAVE MORE NUMBERS, THEN THE MODULE IS OVERPOWERED.
Dont you get it? If it takes A FLEET to kill 1 ship then the module is over powered. nuff said.
"I'm sure some pirate players would like it if there were no alliances, no stations nor anything else in 0.0"
"Carebears are the ones who make your toys in the first place."
lol, perfect example. Someone mentions 'WCS NERF' and they act like the carebear race will DIE OUT because a module is getting balanced. Just use your brain, you dont need a WCS to survive.
"goes to show, not only 0.0 space dangerous."
THERES NO SUCH THING AS SAFE SPACE IN EVE. NOWHERE IS SAFE.
"during the cost of one week i lost 1 scorpion and 1 raven, and both had WCS fitted."
How many people did it take? More than 1? Must of been, because the only way you can counter these are if you bring more people. If you need to bring more people = Module overpowered.
"dexus i thik said something about losing sec when attacking a player"
"cheap-ass frigate or cruiser and feels they have every right to have a 100% killrate"
lol...your dieing to a frig, thats sad. It takes about 5 seconds to kill a frig, just target and put your light drones on him, maybe shoot if you have close range guns or cruise. FFS man, if you cant kill a frig, you have bigger problems.
"against 'carebears' in mining ships worth hundreds of millions of dollars."
ummm, combat ship vs mining ship. A combat ship should win in a fight. nothing new, what are you complaining about? your barge cant kill BSs and mine at the same time? If your threatened, just warp out and dock...
"If you can't field a second ship to tackle, you don't have any right to expect anything better than the occasional kill."
sigh, FFS PLEASE READ BEFORE POSTING.
IF YOU NEED TO GATHER A FLEET TO KILL ONE SHIP, THEN WCS ARE OVERPOWERED. THATS IT. PLease try to explain to me why WCS arent overpowered.
"You think killing carebears is too hard, try to kill a pirate."
I kill whoever comes in my way. miner or not.
"The majority of pirates, use stabs anyway"
Do you have any data to back that up? And 'One time...there was this pirate..." dont count. Any none of my corp mates use stabs.
"and every single pirate I've come across will try and run when they're outgunned."
ok...so sombody ran away when he knew he couldnt win. Are you one of those people that smack the lone pirate in local while your sitting around your gang of 10 people? tbh, I wouldnt fight a fight I knew I would lose. Are you trying to tell me you will fight when outgunned? even when its 10vs1? of course not, just stfu.
"I just might start to see them as anything but hypocrites."
so theyre hypocrites because they dont want to gank people? well guess what. WCS force us to gank. we need that many people to just hold your fucking ship down while your scraming 'GANK!' in local .
"There are pirates and then there are griefer whingers"
Like carebears never whined...
"WCS dont make 0.0 safe. it might makes a little safer though."
Alittle? It makes it ALOT more safer. With WCS you can warp out WHENEVER you want. NPCs scam you? warp out. players scram you? warp out.
"need a tackler or two or three to lock down a ship."
BECAUSE IN ORDER TO KILL, YOU NEED A FLEET. IN ORDER TO COUNTER THE EFFECTS OF ONE MODULE, YOU NEED TO HAVE MORE NUMBERS THAN THE OTHER SIDE. Thats what makes it overpowered.
"when i lost the scorpion the first time i had at least 2-3 ppl locking me down."
yea, one side has to have greater numbers to win.
"which is why i asked if you need to be at max speed before you can warp out?"
"i warped to 100 km of the gate...."
ok you idiot, ill try to make this simple for you. Your optimal range is 100km. His optimal range is 5km. You could shoot him, He cant shoot you. When a hauler jumped in, he was 5km from the pirate, that means the pirate can shoot him. The pirate shoots and the hauler dies. The you warp to him and he chooses not to fight and warps away. Get it? He couldnt shoot you, you were shooting him. Why stick around?
Denim - #35.1 - 2009-06-27 12:58 -
I'll make this quick, I know this is really old and you may have learned more by now Dexus but you are very wrong on several points and fail to understand several statments and take the very wrong. And aren't pirates that lock down a ship so it can't hit and run going on low risk for high reward since the ship can't operate fuctionally due to a few extra modules the pirate fitted to shift a fight in his favor? That seems to explode your "high risk, low risk" argument doesn't? If not try to wrap your head around it and think a bit more if you can... or heck if you even read this old post.
Dexus - #36 - 2006-08-10 07:29 -
And I want you guys to read what I wrote, not just repeate your self while ignoring my points.
A'ruhn - #37 - 2006-08-11 16:50 -
Personally, I have no problem at all with WCS's, I just laugh that so called "pirates" who are so |337 cry like a week old n00b when thei scramming tactics fail to hold a target in place...
Oh BOO-HOO.... cry more n00bs, and go find someone else to fight. Risk vs Reward isn't part of the game, if someone wants to make tons of cash in 0.0, and they fit stabs to do so, I'd call it INTELLIGENT. because 0.0 IS dangerous, it -IS- infested with whiny pirates, and rats...
this is the way the game is played, If have a problem with it, then DON'T PLAY.
Dexus - #38 - 2006-08-11 17:52 -
Noob? If it was between us, I would say you were the noob, your less than 6 months old. I bet your some 12 year old panicing when ccp nerfs your 'I win' button.
"Risk vs Reward isn't part of the game,"
stupidest thing I heard in this thread. that right there tells me your not very expierienced, in the game and in the real world. Why would someone pay you 100m to deliver a package 2 jumps through high sec? THats never going to happen because there isnt a huge risk. People mine in high sec because they dont want to have any risks. People mine in 0.0 because they like getting high reward low risk. WCS gets rid of that risk with no penalty. WCS prevent you from dieing. To die, you would have to face a fleet. If it takes a gang to kill a single target, its ovver powered no matter what.
"I'd call it INTELLIGENT."
Id call it lazyness, you dont need WCS to survive. should I write a guide? just keep an eye on local and SS if anyone wants to kill you.
"because 0.0 IS dangerous"
EXACTLY. wcs remove the danger from that. it would be low risk high reward. not to mention the prices of zyd and mega will go down since carebears with wcs wll go to 0.0.
"it -IS- infested with whiny pirates, and rats... "
Theres no such thing as pirates in 0.0. And if you cant handle NPCs stay out of 0.0.
"this is the way the game is played,"
for now, maybe the upcoming nerf will make people use them less.
cbarran - #39 - 2006-08-11 18:07 -
tell me if this is correct...
with no WCS, 1 ship with a disruptor or scrambler can lock you down?
does the disruptor have a strength of 1 and the scrambler 2?
so to lock down a ship with 1 WCS fitted, what is needed? 2 scramblers or 2 disruptors?
or does it go like this, 1 WCS need 2 scramblers, 2 WCS needs 3 scramblers?
Dexus - #40 - 2006-08-13 01:24 -
warp scram = frig
warp disrupter = everything else
scram = 2 point
disrupter = 1 point
1 wcs = 2 dis, 1 scram
2 wcs = 3dis, 2 scram
Guia - #41 - 2006-08-15 11:10 -
"If equally matched, we can offer battle; if slightly inferior in numbers, we can avoid the enemy; if quite unequal in every way, we can flee from him."
SUN TZU ON THE ART OF WAR
szf - #42 - 2006-08-16 08:28 -
well... Dexus: it seems that you are minority here. Maybe the other "Against-WCS" guys avoid this topic OR most of the people thinks that WCS are good as is. Maybe this could be a sign for you...
I think the game should be fine for the majority of the people - so if the majority thinks that WCS is ok, then there is nothing to speak about
By the way: do I understand well your post above that 1 wcs (-1 warp scram strength) can be countered with 1 scram (+2 warp scram strength)?
szf - #43 - 2006-08-16 08:48 -
one more comment on this topic: the default (when no one have stab/scrambler) that the defender can warp away, right?
If I think as you this is unbalanced as well - because (using your logic) the attacker need one MORE item to fit to block the escape route.... or not?
The wcs just increase both side of the equation by 1....
to succesfully block the warp, you need slots:
defender have attacker need
0 wcs 1 dis
1 wcs 2 dis
2 wcs 3 dis
If I backtrack your logic: you say that line 2 and 3 are unbalanced ("WCS too strong")... then you must say, line 1 unbalanced as well ("because I need +1 item to block the warp"), or you are not consistent at all and just have WCS allergy
vuulpiyne - #44 - 2006-08-18 03:20 -
""Eve is not a PvP game"
Your so wrong. Everything about eve is "player vs PLayer" even the market. Your competeing against other players so people buy your product and not theirs. pvp =/= 'killing people'."
Oh dear, into double-quotation marks. I'm going to have to greatly limit my response to you in order to prevent things from getting ridiculous.
Despite your frantic, angry tone, I get your point, but unfortunately I think you're both spouting irrelevant academia and re-inforcing my point about how most people in the world seem to think it revolves around their head - and in Eve, want things to proceed how they like them to proceed.
I'll correct myself to as much as saying that PvP IS an integral PART of Eve, but it is not the be-all, end-all, end-game, ultimate experience or productive method of gameplay. It's just one more vital ingredient in the recipe.
Eve is a multiplayer game focussed firmly around co-operative, not individually adversative play. Almost everything that can be accomplished in Eve is usually far better accomplished as part of a co-operative group. The structure of the game is set up to encourage this. This is why you have gang bonuses. This is why the best toys are intended for the big alliances, which require whole groups of corporations to work together. This is why the most powerful solo setups get nerfed. This is why it takes a gang to effectively engage other players.
Co-operation, communities and the things they establish are the backbones of Eve gameplay, even in adversity. It's not about single players rushing around trying to cause as much damage as they can.
Before anyone mistakes my meaning, I'm not saying that piracy shouldn't exist in Eve, because that is bollocks as well. It would be a far more boring game if not for freebooters and other agents of chaos. What I'm saying is that solo pirates shouldn't overestimate their priority in the larger scheme of things. It makes things interesting and it certainly can be fun, but it's not the point of the game.
korimh - #45 - 2006-08-30 03:15 -
Dude, i loved your story as a anti-pirate, i congradulate you for it. It was great.
Cathch ya later.
Galindo - #46 - 2006-09-26 23:32 -
Perhaps I don't quite understand the dynamic here (being fairly new), but it is my understanding that people who are anti WCS are NOT anti Scrambler...is this correct? Is there a REASON that you would have one without the other? For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. For Scramblers, there are WCS...for Jammers, there are better scanners, etc. You COULD take away all of these mods and only allow weapons, and possibly cargohold expanders...but that seems silly. Everything else gives you an advantage over the other person...unless they have a counter.
It seems dumb to be arguing about this. But, that's me.
Tactician - #47 - 2008-01-04 20:20 -
I freely state that I'm a noob, and that I only talk out of real world strategy and common sense.
Mobility and the ability to retreat are a modern fleet's most powerful advantage. If you move faster than your enemy can, run when you're hurt and know you can't win, you stand a greater chance of surviving and returning (fully or partially repaired) to kick their asses on their way to the nearest friendly dry dock.
Big guns and armor don't mean a damn if you can't hit a target and retreat when you're facing impossible odds. Take for example the last version of the German Panzer tank. It had a cannon with the diameter of an oil barrel, but it broke down so much and was so slow that the allies could just pick them off with potshots. This isn't wimpiness or cheap tactics- this is REAL strategy. If you think strategy is amassing huge armies and throwing them at your enemies en-masse, you are sadly mistaken. Modern strategy is about using patience, stealth, and positioning to put as few of your units as possible into a place where they can do the most damage while lowering the percentage of casualties.
Eat your heart out, Napoleon Bonaparte.
get a Prorator ( Amarr transport ship) carry all lows WCS still carry 1500 m3 enemy needs 7 scramblers to stop u or a dicter/bubble ( in 0.0) but during wars in empire not much stop the transport ship
Pimpslap - #49 - 2009-03-13 16:22 -
There will NEVER be any balance anywhere. Do you know why? It's because EVERYBODY will always be trying to get the upper hand on everybody else in every situation. Only wannabe pirates cry about mods created for the this game. Marauders like me find so many ways to get pop anyone, anywhere, at anytime. STFU about risk vs reward. I swear it's so played out. Stop comparing this virtual world to RL because in RL rich people like me are the real pirates. Corporations engaged daily in minimal risks with maximum rewards. $$$$$. That is how you prosper and avoid broke. So to all you wannabe pirates.....quit whinning and man up! If you can't figure out how to beat a player that fits WCS then you won't be able to get that far ahead of your prey and thats why you ain't catching nothing.
Herrfaul - #50 - 2009-04-06 15:14 -
good on you for using warp core stabilizers it not only saves your ship but mostly and more importantly deprives you enemies of a kill, also its not surprising all the pirates are moaning and groaning like fags.